The Joel on Software Discussion Group

Sounds kind of bad, but I'd like to know what people think, and I'm sure others would too.

In software, what field has the highest pay for the least amount of work do you think?  (Besides management, which is another story...)

e.g. between systems administration, database stuff, embedded programming, game programming, etc.

I know it is not the last one, because that is what I'm doing now.  I'm looking to get out of the game industry -- it is way too much work.

Is there any field where you can make around $80k with 2-3 years of experience?  (These are Bay Area salaries.)  If you adjust for the hours the game industry's $80k is more like $50k.

I am primarily doing programming because I happen to be decent at it, but it is not my love in life... I have a lot of other interests.  I'm wondering if it is feasible to learn a "trade", so to speak, and maximize earnings.  Right now I am more of generalist than a specialist.

One example is I wonder how much you could make as a Perforce admin or something like that.  I bet if you know it inside out and can do anything with it, you could make like $80k.  It's probably pretty easy work once you know it.

Or do you think the field doesn't matter as much as the company?  Government jobs probably pay pretty well compared to how much work you have to do.

Well it's been said that DBA is short for "Does Bugger All". I can't attest to whether there's any truth in that or not.

Bank Robbing... :-)

In Europe SAP consultants are currently the hen that lay the golden eggs. They have to work with SAP though...

Modeling. Prostitution. Dealing.

Y2K consultant.

You could have done nothing, at most places, and made a mint.

Options trading... if you know what you're doing, in mere seconds you can make a whole ton of money.

Pay is not the same as reward.

If you want to maximize, or at least stabilize, your pay-per-work ratio, then contracting is the obvious answer.  Not only can it be lucrative, but if you're willing to take some risks and know how to market yourself, you can create more balance in your life.  For example, one of my coworkers used to be a full time employee, but now he's back as a contractor 3 days a week, and then teaches the other 2.

I suspect your real problem with the game programming goes beyond workload or undercompensation, though.  You probably just haven't found your niche.  I suspect the game programming field attracts some real talented, passionate people who just love to program games.  You probably can't compete with their passion, since you view your job mostly as work.  Total speculation on my part, of course.

I'll second DBA, but it only works if you have a high tolerance for repetitive work and can avoid responsibility creep.

Almost anything related to software opens up the possibility of responsibility creep.  The problem with software is that it's never perfect, so there's always more work to do, and people are never patient.

One way out, perhaps, is to learn something like Cisco routing.  A route either works or it doesn't.  If you get good at it, I imagine you keep your hours down, although network engineering certainly has headaches of its own, such as pages in the middle of the night, plus all the politics involved when dealing with vendors and clients.

I object to all coments about DBA. I am one. I have taken 3 weeks off in 6 years. I work weekends, nights, whatever. I do a lot of work cleaning up the absolute crap the developers write. Performance tuning, production support, dealing with irate and clueless clients who think everything is a database problem, etc. I get paid handsomely for it.

I'm a developer.  I work nights, weekends, holidays, etc.. cleaning up the "optimization" that the DBAs try to do to our tables and indices.  I deal with the phone calls from irate production DBAs who think everything is a code problem, even when the code hasn't changed in a year and the data volume is about the same.  I deal with the phone calls from irate management who has been called over my head about the imagined code issues which are generally proven to be database (in this case Sybase) problems.

I get paid squat for it.

Being a system administrator is the absolute sweet spot in terms of pay per work done.

That's because as a System Administrator you get paid for every Major-Problem-That-Could-Be-The-Death-Of-The-Company-Forever to be Your Ass.

no thanks.

A GOOD sysadmin should be doing bugger all, since it is his responsibility to keep the system up, not to do anything.

Unfortunately this requires that you spend a considerable time doing immense amounts of work for little immediate reward, first in order to have the knowledge to set up the system safely, and secondly to do this, both on top of spending much if not all of your day firefighting.

And then you have got to hope that you don't have a boss who thinks that busy sysadmins are the same as productive ones, or who thinks he can save your salary now you have everything working.

It could be the Sybase problem then. For some reason my developers seem to think I should tune the crap they write. I have yet to come across a single developer in 11 years as Oracle DBA who can tune a single sql statement. They write crap and send it to me asking why it is performing poorly. I tell them to look at the execution path and tune. They can't even figure out what the problem is. I have said to them, pay me since I am doing part of your job. I thnk many DBAs deserve to get paid the big bucks. It is the clueless developers that have an easy job who can tell the clueless client everything is a database problem.

If the sql takes longer to run over time, the execution plan needs to be looked at, compared to what it is used to do and the sql needs to be tuned, by the creator!!!!! Try that for a new concept.

As soon as I want to slack off, I will become a developer since I can send my crap to DBAs and demand instant performance fix!!

"And then you have got to hope that you don't have a boss who thinks that busy sysadmins are the same as productive ones, or who thinks he can save your salary now you have everything working. "

I was a sysadmin for a startup ISP / ‘whatever the president read about this week’ company a couple of years ago until the management decided to fire their admin staff since “we need to cut spending on salary and nothing has broken in a while’.  They ended contracting with me for exorbitant amounts of money (Emergency action surcharge, higher rates on holidays, minimum 1 hour of work for all of the stupid 10 minute question calls I got at 2AM).  *sigh* good times.

DBA-

Ummm... Did I misunderstand your comment about performance tuning?

It *sounded* like developers come to you for help and you tell them to bugger off.  They need to go figure out their own problems.


Now, I assume I misunderstood you and what you meant to say was:

You have lousy developers who write bad code and expect magical performance tuning to occur in the database level *without* changes to their code.

What you'd like to see is a developer who approaches you and says "Hey, here's what I'm planning on doing.  Can you suggest improvements for me to make?"  Since you're the DBA and all.

++I know it is not the last one, because that is what I'm doing now.  I'm looking to get out of the game industry -- it is way too much work.

You're nuts, dude.  I'd much rather work too many hours doing something I love than do dick all at something I hate...

Our DBA does nothing.  Takes weeks off at a time.  Worked from home for 9 months while getting her Oracle cert. She's essentially a helpdesk for the financials and some biz apps.
She makes 20% more than I do.

The game industry is notorious for hiring inexperienced but talented programmers and working them to the bone, and burning them out within 3 or 4 years.  For most of them it isn't as glamorous as it seems from the outside, as they are treated as lowly pawns and don't get to harness their true creativity, while having no personal life with all the 80-hour work weeks.

yeah, but i'd still give my left nut to be one...

I will think the pay and work relate more on the company you work for rather than the task your work for...

Rob, I was also in the game industry for six years (although burned out after four), and went into defense. Best programming gig EVER... at all the big companies (Lockheed, Raytheon, etc) it's straight 8 hours a day, and expectations are pretty low so you can get by with doing very little for most months, then cramming in a couple busy weeks toward the end.

With a secret clearance you can easily get $80-100K with 5-8 years C++ experience, and if you can perservere to get top secret with polygraph (all of which they pay for) it's normal to get $100-120K. For fun work -- a lot having to do with graphics and networking especially.

You just have to get accustomed to realizing you're a cog in the wheel, and not get upset when you see a lot better way to do things. Usually somebody else (and their committee's) architect things, and you just implement. But  it's great clocking out at 5pm sharp and going home without a care in the world.

"yeah, but i'd still give my left nut to be one..."

Kenny, I bet you'd kick yourself in the other one after three days on the job. Look at all the titles on the shelves (especially the console ones), then look at what percentage you're actually interested in. Those are the odds of getting into a fun project -- actually much less, because everybody on the boring projects wants on the fun projects too.

The reality is most slave away writing music-streaming code to "Purple Dinosaur Adventure" with frustrating hardware, impossible deadlines requiring 60 hours a week up to 80-100 in the last several months, endless status meetings that are really just bitch sessions, shouting in the hallways, temper tantrums, and that's at the GOOD studios.

And if your team manages to lay low and organize well to stay on schedule, the higher ups yank developers off your team to help out the other ones in trouble, but your deadlines stay the same. You can't win... and it's no way to live your life after about age 25.

Good question. But I wonder about "least work". If I am not productive at my job I am not happy. I lose respect for bosses and the company for paying but not utilizing me. You feel they are maxing  you out and where can you find a reasonable balance.

About "least work". There is nothing I abhor more than repetition. Well, maybe doing dumb things (which I do but only because I don't recognize them as dumb). For instance I see a BAA taking an excel spreadsheet and then reading (not cut/paste) from that to type the data into an online form. Incredible but true. I wonder if that is considered "least work" ... it only requires the ability to read and type.

I happen to agree that DBA and sysdmin might fall into the real "least work" group. Where I work we developers do our own DBA work (we use mysql and not oracle ... but when I did use Oracle I paid a consultant to set it up ... it ran and ran without any trouble and whenever I did have troulbe I'd call the consultant ... much cheaper than having a DBA around ... could depend on economy of scale). Ditto with sysadmin. I'd pay a PRO to set it up and then designate a developer as junior sysadmin who should know when he needs to call the consultant PRO.

I've seen DBA's and sysadmins who really and truly just waste time. A good DBA and sysadmin should be spending their time making things better. But then a lot depends on economy of scale ... a small shop might not need a full-time DBA or sysadmin yet they hire one and what does this person have to do after he's got everything running correctly? Well, for one I'd have them creating a smart system so that anyone with good judgment and the ability to read might be able to do their job in a pinch ... Without a doubt I think you will find the DBA and sysadmin as the one who does the least work but only because they are improperly managed.

>I object to all coments about DBA.

You are a victim of responsibility creep.

In every place I have worked, the DBA worked his ass off.  Maybe they weren't enlightened to the 'normal' practices of a DBA?  I've pretty much always worked in an environment with lots of active development, though (hence I'm a developer),  so I'm sure that influenced their workload.

To "DBA", it sounds like you just work with sub-par developers.  I developed on Oracle databases for several years, and never once turned over a query to production that I hadn't at least examined its explain plan.  I even made it part of my "deployment to test" script that the explain plan be shown to me prior to saying "OK" to put the query/sproc/whatever to test.  So really, don't vent your frustration with your coworkers on every developer, just find a better place to work. 

The only people I've every met (in the IT field) with a low work/pay ratio were IT consultants (not contractors).  I mean, their whole job was to sit around and watch other do their work (under the preminition of instruction) and were paid outrageously for it. 

Outside the IT sector, don't get me started!

Question to OP, how many times have you seen Fight Club/Office Space? 500?

Highest pay always goes to the poor guy who's worked so hard he's going to die before he hits 50.

Sales is the least work and the most pay. If it's a good gig. The trick is to avoid the positions where management jerks you around, the product sucks they and doesn't pay you what they owe you.

++Kenny, I bet you'd kick yourself in the other one after three days on the job. Look at all the titles on the shelves (especially the console ones), then look at what percentage you're actually interested in. Those are the odds of getting into a fun project -- actually much less, because everybody on the boring projects wants on the fun projects too.

oh, come on!... working on even the worst game out there has to be multitudes more fun that working on the "funnest" business app...

When you are forced to do it 80 hours a week, almost anything otherwise enjoyable isn't fun anymore.  I like watching basketball, but if I had to do that for 80 hours a week I'd get sick of it.

work at a large corporation. When applying ask the salary you want. You might get the job and do nothing there. It is important to walk fast, talk fast. Perception is reality.

"working on even the worst game out there has to be multitudes more fun that working on the "funnest" business app..."

Yes it's "fun," and you leave for work at 9am and get back at midnight EVERY night Monday through Saturday, then most Sundays go in from 3pm to midnight.

Then after putting two years of your life into the project, "PC Gamer" gives it a 50 rating and you sell 8,000 copies and all the websites say it sucks.

I'll cast another vote for DBA.

We have 3 close to me (in terms of client base) and they are the highest-paid non-management positions we have.  They also vary from "does a lot" (still not as much as most people) to "does damned little" to "does nothing" (calls an outside contractor for any real DBA work).

That's the golden job around here.

Defense industry lackey -- I can definitely tell you were in the game industry for awhile.  : )  Burned out after 4 years?  Try one for me.

Kenny -- good luck if you want it, it's not bad to have the experience, but _have a backup plan_!!!

Defense is indeed a good choice -- I actually got a defense job out of college but turned it down for games.  I didn't want to do something "boring".  I don't really regret it because I don't think you should "settle" right out of college, but now that I have had the experience of games, defense is looking pretty good.  The thing is, it seems like most projects don't see the light of day, so it is all perception.  You just have to make a "demo" and make it look nice.

Hm, seems like there is no real consensus otherwise... I bet it depends on the company a lot more.

What are typical salaries for DBA and sys admins (in the bay area would be nice)?  Is there any site which lists these reliably?

Usually I just see salary surveys of "general IT work".

Spam has got to be a pretty profitable business. (ducks and runs...)

Ditto on games. Most of them actually expect and reward vicious fighting between groups, usually between the "art" group and the programmers. Usually the programmers are treated like mechanics and regularly flayed for not delivering the art directors' and producers' dreams in two hours.

Take all the dysfunctional management practices from corporate life, put 22 year-olds in and crank up the volume, and you've got the game industry.

As to the original question, I would opt for sys admin and similar roles. Because they have direct control over management happiness, via the ability to get laptops working again and so on, they usually have a lot of power. If they're smart, they can use this power to lock down the systems so nothing much ever goes wrong. Of course, developers grind their teetch because they can't install new tools, but who cares about them.

Sys admin it has to be.

> It is important to walk fast, talk fast

In the office, never leave your desk without a file folder or notebook in your hand.

Carry a day planner book. It is best if it is an elaborate one.

Always dress incrementally better than the other people around you.

Watch fluid intake so you can sit in meetings for hours on end.